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	<title>Comments on: Ocular Trauma</title>
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	<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/</link>
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		<title>By: Phil Kahn</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-1206</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Kahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 03:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-1206</guid>
		<description>Things should be working now, Mali. Thanks for reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Things should be working now, Mali. Thanks for reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Mali</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-1205</link>
		<dc:creator>Mali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 02:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-1205</guid>
		<description>Quick technical note about this post: I&#039;m devouring your archives (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.websnark.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Websnark&lt;/a&gt; sent me here) and the link between this post and the next [8/15?/05] is missing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick technical note about this post: I&#8217;m devouring your archives (<a href="http://www.websnark.com/" rel="nofollow">Websnark</a> sent me here) and the link between this post and the next [8/15?/05] is missing.</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-284</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think you paid attention to any of my examples. If you&#039;d said it was gross, sick or wrong (the last you did), I wouldn&#039;t have a problem. I only have a problem with tasteless because as I have specifically illustrated it offers maximum unqualified judgement and the ultimate value call-in in the smallest available space and with the minimum qualification of itself. No, I would not have to demand the removal of all value-based judgements from the English language because language is not a binary black and white thing. That&#039;s why sometimes someone says &#039;bad&#039;, sometimes someone says &#039;crap&#039;, sometimes someone says &#039;abysmal&#039;, because they&#039;re all different. I attack only &#039;tasteless&#039; for the reasons previously explained.

Overall, Phil did weigh and qualify. So did you (Lucas). I didn&#039;t say anyone didn&#039;t nor have I complained about any of that. I attack only the blunt and broken instrument that is &#039;tasteless&#039;, which was only 1% of both reviews, but it&#039;s a particular 1% I will never let go of anywhere when I see it, applied to anything. It didn&#039;t get shot down &#039;for some reason&#039;, it got shot down because of what it is in particular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think you paid attention to any of my examples. If you&#8217;d said it was gross, sick or wrong (the last you did), I wouldn&#8217;t have a problem. I only have a problem with tasteless because as I have specifically illustrated it offers maximum unqualified judgement and the ultimate value call-in in the smallest available space and with the minimum qualification of itself. No, I would not have to demand the removal of all value-based judgements from the English language because language is not a binary black and white thing. That&#8217;s why sometimes someone says &#8216;bad&#8217;, sometimes someone says &#8216;crap&#8217;, sometimes someone says &#8216;abysmal&#8217;, because they&#8217;re all different. I attack only &#8216;tasteless&#8217; for the reasons previously explained.</p>
<p>Overall, Phil did weigh and qualify. So did you (Lucas). I didn&#8217;t say anyone didn&#8217;t nor have I complained about any of that. I attack only the blunt and broken instrument that is &#8216;tasteless&#8217;, which was only 1% of both reviews, but it&#8217;s a particular 1% I will never let go of anywhere when I see it, applied to anything. It didn&#8217;t get shot down &#8216;for some reason&#8217;, it got shot down because of what it is in particular.</p>
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		<title>By: lucas</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator>lucas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-282</guid>
		<description>Exactly.  William said it perfectly.  Saying that I think something in a strip is tasteless for some reason gets shot down by the cartoonist.  But if I said, &quot;Your strip is awesome,&quot; he wouldn&#039;t have had an argument.  And yet both are equally value judgements of my opinion.

The critic&#039;s job is to say &quot;good&quot; &quot;bad&quot; &quot;meh&quot;.  In this case, I think Phil did both.  Weighing and qualifying is what&#039;s important, and once again I think he did that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly.  William said it perfectly.  Saying that I think something in a strip is tasteless for some reason gets shot down by the cartoonist.  But if I said, &#8220;Your strip is awesome,&#8221; he wouldn&#8217;t have had an argument.  And yet both are equally value judgements of my opinion.</p>
<p>The critic&#8217;s job is to say &#8220;good&#8221; &#8220;bad&#8221; &#8220;meh&#8221;.  In this case, I think Phil did both.  Weighing and qualifying is what&#8217;s important, and once again I think he did that.</p>
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		<title>By: william G</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-281</link>
		<dc:creator>william G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-281</guid>
		<description>&quot;Tasteless&quot; is a value judgement much like &quot;good&quot; or &quot;bad&quot;. To be consistant, you&#039;d have to demand the removal of all value-oriented adjectives from the English language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Tasteless&#8221; is a value judgement much like &#8220;good&#8221; or &#8220;bad&#8221;. To be consistant, you&#8217;d have to demand the removal of all value-oriented adjectives from the English language.</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-280</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-280</guid>
		<description>Ack! People in the world of fashion are just the kind of no-critical-skills folks I was talking about. They could descibe something specifically and then say &#039;this sucks&#039;. Instead, they happily choose &#039;tasteless&#039;, becausein fashion it is actively encouraged to put down particular ideas at particular times, no matter what merits someone might argue up for them. And these are ideas which just one season later may be considered &#039;in&#039; again. That&#039;s how silly it is. So I don&#039;t think a visit to the world of fashion supplies any defense for people analysing stuff that has intellectual content but who go with the word. Nor is it to do with prefacing with &#039;I think&#039;. &#039;Tasteless&#039; is simply an adjective that offers maximum unqualified judgement in the smallest amount of time. That&#039;s why I think it should be stamped out. I can&#039;t stamp it out of fashion because they love and need their silliness, but we sure don&#039;t need it in reviewing books, films, comics, etc. Nobody would say &#039;it sure was tasteless when Ed Gein dug up his mum.&#039; But somehow then my decision to relate that piece of information to someone then becomes tasteless. How can a particular story be tasteless? The more you think about it, the less it means.

So, my anti-mania on &#039;tasteless&#039; aside &lt;_&lt; your commentary was very enlightening and interesting to me, and I am seriously considering a lot of the ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ack! People in the world of fashion are just the kind of no-critical-skills folks I was talking about. They could descibe something specifically and then say &#8216;this sucks&#8217;. Instead, they happily choose &#8216;tasteless&#8217;, becausein fashion it is actively encouraged to put down particular ideas at particular times, no matter what merits someone might argue up for them. And these are ideas which just one season later may be considered &#8216;in&#8217; again. That&#8217;s how silly it is. So I don&#8217;t think a visit to the world of fashion supplies any defense for people analysing stuff that has intellectual content but who go with the word. Nor is it to do with prefacing with &#8216;I think&#8217;. &#8216;Tasteless&#8217; is simply an adjective that offers maximum unqualified judgement in the smallest amount of time. That&#8217;s why I think it should be stamped out. I can&#8217;t stamp it out of fashion because they love and need their silliness, but we sure don&#8217;t need it in reviewing books, films, comics, etc. Nobody would say &#8216;it sure was tasteless when Ed Gein dug up his mum.&#8217; But somehow then my decision to relate that piece of information to someone then becomes tasteless. How can a particular story be tasteless? The more you think about it, the less it means.</p>
<p>So, my anti-mania on &#8216;tasteless&#8217; aside <_< your commentary was very enlightening and interesting to me, and I am seriously considering a lot of the ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: lucastds</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator>lucastds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 04:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-279</guid>
		<description>EDIT: once again, the &quot;you&#039;re&quot;=&quot;your&quot; thing. I  apologize.  No edit feature on these things.  Misspelling occurs when I ramble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EDIT: once again, the &#8220;you&#8217;re&#8221;=&#8221;your&#8221; thing. I  apologize.  No edit feature on these things.  Misspelling occurs when I ramble.</p>
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		<title>By: lucastds</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>lucastds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 04:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-278</guid>
		<description>I think reviewers can call things tasteless.  You see it all the time in the world of fashion... clothes that are tasteless.  Reviewers say so.  A review doesn&#039;t need to be qualified with &quot;I think&quot;.  It&#039;s pretty much the person&#039;s opinion and the reader should know that.

Anyways, to respond. Completely in random order:

I&#039;m glad you appreciated me pointing out the line consistency issue etc.

The issue with the &quot;Onion&quot; type comics, I think, could be resolved by simply putting them in a box that was the same size as the other comics.  It would make me &quot;get&quot; the fact that it is a comic.  The restaurant menu is funny, but for a comic-reader, it&#039;s also REALLY REALLY wordy.  So it doesn&#039;t feel like a comic.  If that makes sense.  Perhaps there could be a comic section and a &quot;general humour&quot; section or something. *shrug*

WADE Says: &quot;You&#039;re harping on me to pull this into line with a gag a day. Have a frame size, get all the artwork consistent, etc. I do think the different modes are very consistent within themselves - except for the previously discussed artwork issues in the comicky ones :) - but for instance, the restaurant menu from today + the ebay comic + the virtual will all feel entirely at home next to each other.&quot;

^ I agree.  But at the same time, if you want regular readers, you&#039;ll have to decide &quot;What sort&quot; of artwork your producing.  What sort of site you want to be.  Because if you keep changing it around you&#039;ll lose readers faster than Megatokyo.

As for the stick figure issue, I do understand how the tampon joke can only exist in the world of silliness, but at the same time, it does devalue your comic to have beautiful artwork one day and stick figures the next.  there *are* ways of doing a joke like that within the realm of *higher* art, I think.

-----
WADE SAYS:
But I totally acknowledge your point that the people still look too different overall. There&#039;s a few modes, and sometimes the cartoon people look a lot simpler than on other days. I think your suggestions are a definite motivator for me to get them all the same.

RESPONSE: i don&#039;t necessarily mean that they must all look the same or whatnot, but to establish a similar mood is important.  The same overall look and feel.  They can all exist within their own mood or whatever, but to have some strand holding them together would be nice.

As with the clothing... I could totally tell you stole that from Questionable Content.  ;)

And Photoshop: I only called what I saw.  I was more commenting on the fact that some lines were blurry and others strong than on the materials you use.

That&#039;s all.

PS: I&#039;m not really a reviewer, just a random cartoonist stopping by and checking it out.  Hopefully some stuff I said made sense.  Disregard the rest, of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think reviewers can call things tasteless.  You see it all the time in the world of fashion&#8230; clothes that are tasteless.  Reviewers say so.  A review doesn&#8217;t need to be qualified with &#8220;I think&#8221;.  It&#8217;s pretty much the person&#8217;s opinion and the reader should know that.</p>
<p>Anyways, to respond. Completely in random order:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you appreciated me pointing out the line consistency issue etc.</p>
<p>The issue with the &#8220;Onion&#8221; type comics, I think, could be resolved by simply putting them in a box that was the same size as the other comics.  It would make me &#8220;get&#8221; the fact that it is a comic.  The restaurant menu is funny, but for a comic-reader, it&#8217;s also REALLY REALLY wordy.  So it doesn&#8217;t feel like a comic.  If that makes sense.  Perhaps there could be a comic section and a &#8220;general humour&#8221; section or something. *shrug*</p>
<p>WADE Says: &#8220;You&#8217;re harping on me to pull this into line with a gag a day. Have a frame size, get all the artwork consistent, etc. I do think the different modes are very consistent within themselves &#8211; except for the previously discussed artwork issues in the comicky ones :) &#8211; but for instance, the restaurant menu from today + the ebay comic + the virtual will all feel entirely at home next to each other.&#8221;</p>
<p>^ I agree.  But at the same time, if you want regular readers, you&#8217;ll have to decide &#8220;What sort&#8221; of artwork your producing.  What sort of site you want to be.  Because if you keep changing it around you&#8217;ll lose readers faster than Megatokyo.</p>
<p>As for the stick figure issue, I do understand how the tampon joke can only exist in the world of silliness, but at the same time, it does devalue your comic to have beautiful artwork one day and stick figures the next.  there *are* ways of doing a joke like that within the realm of *higher* art, I think.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8211;<br />
WADE SAYS:<br />
But I totally acknowledge your point that the people still look too different overall. There&#8217;s a few modes, and sometimes the cartoon people look a lot simpler than on other days. I think your suggestions are a definite motivator for me to get them all the same.</p>
<p>RESPONSE: i don&#8217;t necessarily mean that they must all look the same or whatnot, but to establish a similar mood is important.  The same overall look and feel.  They can all exist within their own mood or whatever, but to have some strand holding them together would be nice.</p>
<p>As with the clothing&#8230; I could totally tell you stole that from Questionable Content.  ;)</p>
<p>And Photoshop: I only called what I saw.  I was more commenting on the fact that some lines were blurry and others strong than on the materials you use.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s all.</p>
<p>PS: I&#8217;m not really a reviewer, just a random cartoonist stopping by and checking it out.  Hopefully some stuff I said made sense.  Disregard the rest, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-277</guid>
		<description>Oh yeah, sorry to make a third post, but I just wanted to say I&#039;ve never used Photoshop in my life :)   I have a weird history of always having tools attributed to me that I&#039;ve never used whenever I make stuff online - for instance midi files when I used a tracker, in music. But now I&#039;m straying off course and probably no-one cares!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah, sorry to make a third post, but I just wanted to say I&#8217;ve never used Photoshop in my life :)   I have a weird history of always having tools attributed to me that I&#8217;ve never used whenever I make stuff online &#8211; for instance midi files when I used a tracker, in music. But now I&#8217;m straying off course and probably no-one cares!</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://www.just-saying.com/index.php/archives/2005/08/14/occular-trauma/comment-page-1/#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=112#comment-276</guid>
		<description>...And now to my two points of major disagreement, one which I regard as extremely important for all critics!

I am alarmed by both of you going around with that word &#039;tasteless&#039;. I believe critics should never use it. You can use specific adjectives like, &#039;This is gross, I find this totally sick&#039;, which also alert us to your subjectivity, possess quality meaning and are fine! But never the nebulous and assumptive &#039;tasteless&#039;.

Taste is really just what one person likes. But when it&#039;s evoked for assessment, it seeks to divide things into two completely unproven categories - the tasteful and the tasteless - and pretends they&#039;re objectively defined, and acts all hoity-toity about things while it&#039;s at it! If I say something is tasteful, I&#039;m saying I approve of it and so do all of these other smart and refined people who share my viewpoint about what is tasteful and what isn&#039;t, because we all know. And correspondingly for the negative in the case of &#039;tasteless&#039;.

That&#039;s why in conversation, people with no critical skills use &#039;you have good taste&#039; or you &#039;have no taste&#039; to pass off their &#039;I agree&#039; or &#039;I disagree&#039; as something bigger than they are.

As a critic myself, I seek and destroy the tasteful/tasteless thing wherever I see it.

So, I certainly reject all assessments along those lines concerning Ocular Trauma. You can say it&#039;s gross, sick, gory, violent, queasy and &#039;just plain WRONG&#039; becasue it proudly is. But &#039;tasteless&#039; doesn&#039;t mean anything and is dismissive.

In the case of the guy who dug up his mother, I gotta disagree hugely, and not just because of two back-to-back tastelesses :) I never sought shivers or bemusement. I simply drew the guy exhibiting the great joy he feels upon seeing his mum right after he&#039;s pulled her corpse out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;And now to my two points of major disagreement, one which I regard as extremely important for all critics!</p>
<p>I am alarmed by both of you going around with that word &#8216;tasteless&#8217;. I believe critics should never use it. You can use specific adjectives like, &#8216;This is gross, I find this totally sick&#8217;, which also alert us to your subjectivity, possess quality meaning and are fine! But never the nebulous and assumptive &#8216;tasteless&#8217;.</p>
<p>Taste is really just what one person likes. But when it&#8217;s evoked for assessment, it seeks to divide things into two completely unproven categories &#8211; the tasteful and the tasteless &#8211; and pretends they&#8217;re objectively defined, and acts all hoity-toity about things while it&#8217;s at it! If I say something is tasteful, I&#8217;m saying I approve of it and so do all of these other smart and refined people who share my viewpoint about what is tasteful and what isn&#8217;t, because we all know. And correspondingly for the negative in the case of &#8216;tasteless&#8217;.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why in conversation, people with no critical skills use &#8216;you have good taste&#8217; or you &#8216;have no taste&#8217; to pass off their &#8216;I agree&#8217; or &#8216;I disagree&#8217; as something bigger than they are.</p>
<p>As a critic myself, I seek and destroy the tasteful/tasteless thing wherever I see it.</p>
<p>So, I certainly reject all assessments along those lines concerning Ocular Trauma. You can say it&#8217;s gross, sick, gory, violent, queasy and &#8216;just plain WRONG&#8217; becasue it proudly is. But &#8216;tasteless&#8217; doesn&#8217;t mean anything and is dismissive.</p>
<p>In the case of the guy who dug up his mother, I gotta disagree hugely, and not just because of two back-to-back tastelesses :) I never sought shivers or bemusement. I simply drew the guy exhibiting the great joy he feels upon seeing his mum right after he&#8217;s pulled her corpse out.</p>
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